60: Honouring the deeper internal shifts the menopause transition may bring with Kirstin Bouse

[00:01] Sonya: Welcome to the Dear Menopause podcast, where we discuss the menopause transition to help.

[00:06] Sonya: Make everyday life a little easier for women. Hi, I'm Sonya Lovell, the host of Dear Menopause, the podcast. And today we are flipping the tables on a Dear Menopause listener. I am bringing you a chat I had with psychologist Kirsten Bous. Kirsten reached out to me as a midlife woman going through menopause, but wanting to bring her angle on things. As a practicing psychologist, I hope you enjoy this fascinating conversation.

[00:36] Sonya: Kathen. Welcome to Dear Menopause. Thank you so much for joining us.

[00:40] Kirstin: It is so very cool to have a chance to chat to you given as I said before, you've been in my ears many, many times listening to your podcast.

[00:51] Sonya: I know. I'm so honored when I hear that I get guests on and they're like, oh, I've listened to all your episodes. I'm like, wow. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening because that just absolutely makes my day. But it's also such a privilege for me to take a listener and bring you onto the episode and have you as a guest.

[01:09] Kirstin: Thank you. As I said, it's pretty exciting. And yeah, I'm stoked that I'm getting a chance maybe to talk a bit more about the mental health kind of elements of this interesting time in a woman's life.

[01:23] Sonya: Absolutely. And I'm equally excited and really so grateful that we are going to have this conversation because I know it's going to be juicy. I know it's going to help so many women. So let's dive straight into it. Kirsten, first of all, introduce yourself. Tell everyone that's listening who you are, and that'll give them an insight into why you're here today, for sure.

[01:48] Kirstin: So, yeah, I'm Kirsten Bouse, and I'm a clinical psychologist. I hang out in Perth. I've been a Psych for a really long time now. I think I'm hitting the 26 year mark, and I'm the owner of a group practice, which I've had for about 17 years. And I guess what's really interesting, I've had a very, very diverse career. If people kind of Google me, they'll see I did prison work early in my career and family court work and all sorts of things. But one of the areas that I've kind of consistently worked in is around helping women with transitions in their lives. Now, one of the most obvious transitions, which I spent a lot of time working in, was in the kind of becoming a mother space. And I really, really loved that work because it's such a profound shift in identity and there's a whole bunch of social expectations and it's just a really rich area of working clinically because of the broad impacts, I think, on women and the deep internal impacts on women. And I guess as time passed and then I hit the joys of perimenopause, I realized that's just such another transition. Now, in some ways, I feel silly saying it because of course it's a transition, but until I really, really went through it because I had a mum who just soldiered on. Like, I know it was a difficult time for her, but at the end of the day, she was of that generation that just got on with it. She was a nurse, so it wasn't hidden mum's. Very matter of fact about a lot of things in life, but, yeah, I didn't anticipate just how significant an experience it was going to be for me. And to be honest, there's times I think of clients that come to mind, and I think, oh, God, I just didn't ever ask that question or bring that kind of possibility into the therapy room for them to explore. But as going through it, and it's been a rough ride and I'm in the thick of it and it still can be challenging at times and I think there's many layers to that challenge and a lot of attention, not a lot. I mean, it's increasing amount of attention is going to the physical experience of menopause and I think we're only really in the early stages of looking at the deeper internal shifts that happen for women and so this has been my baby. I tend to go down rabbit holes. I get very invested when I start working in a particular area of psychology or with a particular kind of life issue client population or whatever. And so for me, I've just been inhaling stuff since I started this journey, which was probably, I'm coming up to 49, it was probably around 43, 44 that I started and that's because I had a hysterectomy, kept my ovaries, had a hysterectomy, and I'm really quite confident that brought it on for me at that stage. That's where my energy is going, is really working with women and just I mean, I talk with anyone and everyone about this stuff anyway.

[05:13] Sonya: Yay.

[05:14] Kirstin: Yes, I do.

[05:15] Sonya: You are a proud member of what I've coined the meno choir.

[05:19] Kirstin: Okay, cool. I'll take it. I'll take it and run with it. Yeah. I'm someone who's always talked about things that perhaps shouldn't be talked about or should be talked about, but people often feel comfortable. My kids have told me that for many years that I talk about things other mothers just don't.

[05:37] Sonya: I have a feeling that you and I are like perhaps twins that were separated at birth.

[05:45] Kirstin: There's some of us around. I think there's more than twins, but we have to sniff each other out.

[05:50] Sonya: I love it, though, when we find each other, it's like it's not the only one.

[05:55] Kirstin: Yeah, I know, it's very reassuring. Probably a bit dangerous, but potentially, yeah. But yes. So that's really where I'm spending a lot of my energy and there's obviously the one to one kind of model that is really typical of psychologists and things, but I've actually recently put together and I'm going to be launching more a group coaching program. And I guess there's a bit of a distinction between those two kind of offerings, which I can either talk about now or a bit later. But I think there's just maybe to be quick about it is an individual kind of service is really for those who perhaps are really struggling and they just need that really personal attention. And the mental health element of it needs to be supported first and foremost. And then the coaching offering is for people who are still experiencing challenges but perhaps are a little more resourced and more able to make changes in their life with not quite as much talent, shall we say? That's what I'm up to.

[07:04] Sonya: I would imagine that's such an important and incredible offering to be able to provide for women as well because it also makes that support so much more accessible.

[07:16] Kirstin: Yeah, definitely. And I think WA is a very big state. Australia is quite a big country, really. It is. With a lot of regional areas and just a lot of even if you don't live regionally, it can be difficult to make life work at this stage of life, as I've heard you say, and many of your guests say. We have so many demands on us, and I want to try and make it as easy as I can to access these kind of services. At the same time, I'll be honest with you that it also is something that I've really had to think about how do I fit it into my life? And this is where I'm really committed to practicing what I preach. The changes that I've had to make in my life have not been easy at all. And not that people have to make the same changes I have, but change is difficult. And I think as someone who has always tried to practice what I preach, I really get the challenges of that. But how I deliver, I guess my service is also it's got to fit into my life, but I also want to make it accessible. And so it's really trying to find that sweet spot.

[08:29] Sonya: Yeah, and it is a sweet spot, isn't it? And it's something that I'm actually really challenged by at the moment as well, is I love my gym and I love my podcast and I love the advocacy work, but I also have to be really conscious of how I balance all of that with my life. And like you said earlier, I'm someone also who dives down rabbit holes and becomes very invested from a time perspective and a passion perspective. And yeah, I do have to really work hard at times to create boundaries and make conscious decisions about where I spend my energy and my time. And it's hard to do that when you are so passionate about what you do. But I think this also segues nicely into a conversation that I was really hoping you and I would be able to have, and that is around this time of life where I firmly believe, and I know that you believe this, and I've heard so many other incredible women say this as well. We have this incredible opportunity and gift to sit in time and space a little bit and reflect on, okay, what do I actually want my life to look like now? And I think I heard James Bonder refer to it as, like, a little bit of a life review or a life stop, that you get the opportunity to go, okay, so what has got me to where I am today? Where do I want to go? What can I take with me? What can I leave behind? What new things do I need to draw in? Let's discuss all of that because I think it's such a juicy topic.

[10:12] Kirstin: It's a hugely juicy topic, and I think you're right. And look, no, I haven't toyed with the idea of a PhD, but I wish somebody else would do a PhD in this really kind of I don't want to say flaky, but it's really broad, it's really deep. It's not just looking at depression and anxiety, which are a little more measurable and therefore well suited to PhDs and things. What I think we're talking about is a real, really big shift in who we are and how we want to be in the world and how we want to live our lives. And they're far harder to define and quantify and measure and kind of do something with and get a result from. But me, too. This is the stuff that I've experienced, and I hear this all the time in my work and in my personal life as being really relevant to this stage of life. And interestingly and a bit sadly, when I turn to the psychological literature, it's not really captured. So there's a stage there's a fellow called Ericsson, and he kind of came up with these psychosocial developmental stages that we go through from birth through to older age. And it's kind of like, I don't know, from the age of 60 onwards, we want to give back. We're far more focused on mentoring and sharing our wisdom. And I had said for a while, jeez, Ericsson's really missed the boat there because I'm nearly 49 and I'm really feeling this way early what I'm supposed to. This is a very kind of old theory, so it probably never captured the fact that we live a heck of a lot longer. And of course, women weren't really considered.

[12:08] Sonya: No male centric exactly.

[12:14] Kirstin: And so I think we really need to kind of revise that and specifically for women, because so much happens for us internally, physiologically, in our neurochemistry and every hormonal, all of that stuff, which there's far better people to speak to than I. And it has this really flow on effect where we really want to need to, but also want to make some changes in our life and small but sometimes quite big as well.

[12:45] Sonya: Yeah. And sometimes they can also be small but powerful. And I think sometimes it's those small shifts that can often be the most powerful and can lead you then into those bigger shifts.

[13:00] Kirstin: Definitely. And I think we reach a stage where we are less concerned and tied up by and shackled by norms and expectations that we're kind of maybe unwillingly but generally willingly. And I'm thinking to be honest, I'm thinking a bit about motherhood here. Our whole psyche is oriented towards focusing on our children and many of us still do manage to forge really great, cool, interesting careers. But there's that sense of mothering being perhaps the biggest portion of our identities. And that seems to start falling away during this period of time where it's not that we want to get rid of our kids or anything or not be mothers anymore, but we really want to start reinvesting some of that energy back into what makes our heart sing and what's meaningful for us and also what sustains us and I guess gives us energy. And we also want to start removing those things that deplete our energy. And I know you are okay with swearing because I've heard many of your podcasts you are we basically start giving less ***** about the impact of all that kind of stuff and that's really powerful. That's really powerful. I hear and I feel for myself more power in that space than I have at any other time in my life.

[14:39] Sonya: Yeah. So for a woman that's listening that's perhaps in those mid to late 40s or even her early fifty s and she is starting to hear those voices get that calling of yeah, you know what? I kind of want something different but I don't quite know where to start with making change or even exploring what change it is that I want kind of where would you recommend that is a good starting point if you've got those little niggles kind of calling you.

[15:17] Kirstin: Yeah, I guess the niggles are something to really listen to and allow space for. And I know it's very cliched and I'm going to be honest here, I'm not an avid journaler. I journal when I need to but it's not something I could ever do. Many times a week I'm just not disciplined enough to be honest. But this is where journaling can be really useful. It's just that uncensored uninterrupted flow of what is that niggle saying and starting there and just letting it come out and it will probably be sometime repeated process, no rush. Do it when you feel like it where you start to actually find the themes that are emerging for you. I think the other thing is sometimes reflecting on how we maybe lived life before we had so many adult responsibilities and restrictions on our time and energy can also be really good places to start. I mean when people think back to what did I enjoy as a child, an adolescent, a young adult? How did I spend my time? What are the things that really grabbed my intention and curiosity and lit my eyes up? Those are really great clues and they may not translate into anything other than other leisure bringing those leisure activities back into your life. What I have found is for a lot of women that they start to move into a place where maybe they want to create the side hustle. I seem to attract entrepreneurs, and I think that birds of a feather kind of thing. And so they start to be able to pursue these things which may not be creative in the traditional sense of how people think about creativity, but are creative in that there's something different for them. And they allow them to tap into parts of themselves that perhaps their regular life, their normal job, that kind of thing, doesn't allow them to do. And so there can be a lot of answers back there that you can also have a play with and be curious about as well.

[17:40] Sonya: Yeah, I like that. It's something I hadn't thought about before, but yeah, really tapping back into what were the things that, like you say before we got all those adult responsibilities that really do sideline so much of those passions and joys and little things that can fire us up? What were they? I like that.

[18:03] Kirstin: Yeah, well, it's funny because music and musical theater and singing in bands and stuff like that was always something I did as a young person and time just doesn't allow for that when you're in the thick of working and mortgages and daily life and children and things. And so there's just small ways that I've been consciously bringing them back into my life. There's still some demands that I can't avoid and responsibilities I can't relinquish. But more and more it's about particularly as my children get older and things, it does allow me to start to bring those things back. So that's just if you were bit if people were a bit stuck on what I was referring to, that's just my example of something that's coming more and more back into my life that actually is so simple but brings me a lot of joy.

[19:03] Sonya: Yeah, no, it's got me thinking. All I can reflect on at the moment is the fact that all of my school reports said sonya talks too much and now I find myself behind a mic.

[19:21] Kirstin: You're living one of them already. Intuitively. And I think that's the thing. I think when this stage allows us to tap more into our intuition so you've found this medium that allows you to talk too much that really, I know, brings you a lot of joy. You've you've said that it brings you a lot of joy and I think how intuitive was that? That's super cool that you had that kind of inkling and you pursued it.

[19:53] Sonya: Yeah and I feel incredibly look, I'm going to say lucky, but that's loose because there is a lot of hard work that's gone into this as well. But I am lucky to, I suppose, live a life where I have always chased a more entrepreneurial kind of lifestyle that allows me to create the space to do things like this with my time. And it's interesting when you talk about being creative, I don't consider myself to be a creative person but I know that what I do is creative in its own way.

[20:34] Kirstin: Absolutely. You've burst a podcast. There's nothing more creative than producing something new and putting it out and birthing it into the world.

[20:47] Sonya: Very true. I need to take a lot more time to reflect on that, I think. So what's the biggest shift that you feel women are maybe searching for or kind of start wanting to explore at this age in life?

[21:08] Kirstin: The word freedom, I think is the one that comes to mind. And of course, that can mean lots of different things to different people, but I guess depending on the age of their children, if they have children. And then also we're looking at elderly parents. So I get that there's still these responsibilities that people can have and sometimes careers cannot feel like freedom as well at this particular stage. So there's all these trappings around us, and I think we start to notice some grumbling, and probably at this stage is starting to voice it. Irritability kind of goes hand in hand with this stage. And I think they start to show up in these areas of our life where we're just wanting a bit more space to breathe and to pursue our own version of what freedom is. And so people do do radical shifts of leaving in jobs, leaving marriages, all of that kind of is really common, as you'd know. But I think freedom as well can start to show up in the extracurricular stuff that you do, how you spend your time, who you spend your time with. I think we also start to recognize that perhaps we don't have as much energy as we did when we were younger and so we become more conscious of how we spend and expend that energy with who and where and how and when and all the rest. And so I think this is the biggest shift that I've really observed women wanting is to be more the captains of how they spend their time, energy and focus less having it dictated to us.

[23:02] Sonya: And I think that's really poignant when it comes to careers is there are a lot of women that have careers that they've chosen, that they're super successful at and that they absolutely love and that they would say give them the freedom that that it is that they're searching for. But there are also, on the flip side of that many women that find themselves in careers or jobs that do maybe make them feel constrained and don't tickle their boxes. And maybe it's something they fell into and they've just kind of kept doing it because it's paid the bills and it's given them some purpose outside of the house and that sort of thing. And it can be such a great time to start thinking about not even just changes in personal lives, but changes in careers and jobs because our working life now is so much longer than it was. I consider myself to at least have another good 20 to 30 years that I want to be working for. How do I want to spend that time? Because it is still such a big chunk of our time that our daily time that we have available to us is often spent working.

[24:19] Kirstin: It's a huge chunk of time that we do spend week to week. And yes, we are working for a heck of a lot longer. I think there's also a third category of women when we talk about careers and things and I've certainly come across them and I would kind of put myself in this category too. And that is that the careers have really been fulfilling and served them well, but maybe no longer. And I think that can be a difficult thing as well because when you have loved your career within you, there's the expectation and idea that you'll continue. I know that may not be how the younger generation are approaching careers these days, but this is how we approach it. We tend to kind of think that we're going to be doing this thing if we love it for a really long time. So it can be quite difficult to admit to yourself that actually it's not serving me anymore and I don't want to be doing this or I don't want to be doing it this way anymore. And not only that, you then have other people saying what is going on?

[25:31] Sonya: Hey, you've got this great job and you've achieved all these amazing things.

[25:38] Kirstin: And it can be a real sense of I mean, you can be thinking, oh my God, this is ridiculous. Yes, why would I make this change when I am at this stage of my career and I have loved it? And so I think that is another category of women and it has its unique challenges around obstacles to actually honoring the desire to change is difficult, which I've said before and it can be even more difficult when it's like, well, why now? But I think this just reflects this growing, this movement that we have going on internally where we just want different things in life. I'm not sure that our values change dramatically. I think values are relatively consistent. Once you're kind of a fully grown adult, they tend to kind of last most of your life. Maybe a bit of a reordering of them might occur. But our priorities and our desires and our wants and our needs change at many stages of our life but particularly this stage as well because they become a bit more directed to what do I need versus what does my family need? And prior to that, what do my peers think I should be doing? Which is very common for adolescents and young adults.

[27:03] Sonya: True, yeah. I feel like it is definitely a time where a woman kind of is allowed to start being more self centered and not in a selfish way, but in a it's actually okay for this everything to be about me. Right now. And it's okay for me to make choices and decisions that are serving me. As opposed to, like you said, serving the family or the colleagues.

[27:39] Kirstin: Yeah, I really think it's just this natural progression that we move towards where we start to think, hang on a minute. I've done so much for others for such a long time, and they're more capable in many ways. And now it is a bit of my time. And I guess it's kind of like, well, if not now, when? Because we will always have responsibilities. Some magical people might be able to live a life without any but I think they're a bit like unicorns. Most of us have some responsibilities to others in some shape or form and so there is a time where if we keep waiting for those to truly, truly kind of depart those responsibilities, then we'll be waiting forever. And I think certainly if you talk to a lot of much older parents like even my parents is like, yeah, they're still kind of helping me out in different ways where they can even though the tables have turned a fair bit and I'm also providing a fair bit of support to them too as they age. But yeah, I think it's a really important stage and it's one that we can grab the reins of and you can kind of slide through it without much conscious consideration, I guess. And certainly generations of women before us have. But at the same time, it feels like as much as there's some really difficult stuff in perimenopause and menopause post menopausal, there's also some real gifts. And I think the gifts are if we can honor what's happening internally for us, then we are able to create a pretty cool life. Doesn't mean we avoid hardship and ****** things happening. No, life is like that. But the bits that we can influence, we can influence really well and just feel quite fulfilled and interested and engaged in life. The things that kind of, I don't know, get us up in the morning with a bit more verve and vigor.

[30:00] Sonya: Absolutely. Yeah. And I think I really want to spread the word to as many women as we can to really lean into this side of this transition. We do focus a lot on the physical symptoms and there is a good amount of information coming through now on the mental health aspects of it as well. But I really think that if we can also look at this opportunity as the gift that it can be and in saying that life is never easy for any for everyone. And there will be women that are in this phase of life and that maybe are being dealt with a bit of a **** sandwich and kind of going, yeah, right, that's easy for you to say. But I think for the majority of women there is this opportunity to really take advantage of the gift that we've been given as this first generation of women that can actually make these decisions and make change and move forward all informed and empowered.

[30:59] Kirstin: Yeah. And I guess just to pick up on your comment that women might be listening and thinking, oh, it's easy for you. I'm a pretty open person and having done a lot of media work over the course of my career, I've always shared a little bit of my own stuff when it's been relevant and maybe helpful. And I was in a really dark place at the beginning of last year and for a period of time I had postnatal anxiety with my kids and things like that, but managed to kind of, as a psych, do the things that I tell people to do and was quite contained to those periods of my life. I've never been depressed before in my life, but I absolutely was in a really dark place where my GP was talking to me about antidepressants, which I said no to. I really knew I needed more hormone therapy and I also needed to make some change, some big changes in my life. I knew that there was a long time before well, it was a whole process really dark. Couldn't see the wood for the trees. Felt quite despairing. Fell on, you know, was on my knees thinking, how the hell am I going to get out of this kind of space that I'm in, that I've never been in before? And I've had hard times, but not in that mood kind of disordered way. And then it was like, okay, I think I know there's things I need to do. But I didn't have the energy, I didn't have the resources. And also kind of wasn't very hopeful at that stage either. Managed to kind of slowly just do things which I knew were good for me, even though I didn't feel like doing them. Moved into a place of more hope. Started to build my resources and kind of, I guess, get out of that dark place. So it certainly is not a quick process. It's not an easy process at all either, but it is something that you can get to the other side of. Do I still have days that are really difficult? Yes. My sleep is absolutely **** and I feel so fatigued and I get migraines and I definitely get knocked around. And probably still a few times a week. But at the same time, when I have good days, I really embrace those good days. And they're the days that I kind of try and do as much as I can, kind of keeping it in check a little bit, but they're the days I maximize. It's like, okay, this is a good day. It may not be a great day tomorrow, so this is how I have approached it, and it has been difficult. But for those who are really in dark places, just feeling kind of overwhelmed by it all, there is a way through it. It just takes time and a heck of a lot of patience with yourself, which I know.

[33:52] Sonya: And I think the other thing that you touched on too, which is so incredibly important, is asking for help and going and seeing, like you said, that you went to your GP. And even though the recommendation that they made didn't sit well with you and wasn't the choice that you moved forward with, you still had that conversation. And there is so much to be said for having conversation, just voicing putting voice to the fears and the dark times and the scary parts of our shadows that we don't always want to name and give a voice to. But it's not until we actually can do that that we can often start doing the work that's required to get us to the point where we're having more better days than bad days.

[34:40] Kirstin: Yeah, I mean, Maslow's hierarchy of needs has been around forever in a day, these two kind of opposing things because on one hand, I'm very pragmatic and practical and then I can also be quite woo woo and all sorts of things at the same time. But we have to approach things first and foremost in terms of meeting our basic needs. And so the focus is about kind of addressing that first before we start moving into, wow, how can I change my life and do the things that are meaningful to me? Yeah, you can't start there. When you're really in a dark place, you start with the absolute bare bones and talking to people, the professionals, GPS, psychologists, psychiatrists, if need be, counselors, coaches, friends, family. It's hugely important. And I know you talk a lot about self advocacy, and I think that is really critical. And in many ways, I think it's quite an important variable that can make it the difference for some women as to whether they continue to struggle through this period of their life or whether they find a way through the struggle onto the other side of this period of life.

[35:55] Sonya: Yeah, that's great and such an important message to get across as well. Preston, thank you so much for this. There's been such an enlightening conversation and I think that there's so much that we could continue to talk about, but it really is, at the end of the day, it's knowing that this opportunity exists. Find the time that's right for you to dive into it, to explore, to play around with ideas of what you may like. We've talked about what you might like to keep continuing forward with or what maybe it's time to kind of park and go, you know what? You've served me well for the last 40 to 50 years, but I'm going to leave you there and I'm going to move forward with something different. And that can be something big and it can be something small, but that it's totally okay to do that and to take the time to explore into that. Kirsten if there was one piece of advice that you wanted to leave all of our listeners with today, what would that be?

[36:56] Kirstin: To listen to yourself and to give yourself permission to honor what you hear. Definitely.

[37:04] Sonya: I love that.

[37:05] Kirstin: Great.

[37:07] Sonya: Brilliant. All right, now we're going to move into the final question that I have for you, and I have a feeling you know it's coming.

[37:14] Kirstin: I do.

[37:15] Sonya: Hey, she's prepared. What are you reading, listening to or watching right now that is bringing you joy?

[37:25] Kirstin: Yes, I have been thinking about the answer to this question. So I'm in that really old fashioned scenario where I'm watching a number of theories and I have to watch a number of them because they're only releasing the episodes weekly. Yes. Though, I mean, I've just finished shrinking, so no surprises. I would really enjoy that. I'm always watching Ted Lasso. Absolutely love that. I did Binge on Bad Apple, which is about a group of Irish sisters who set out to yes. Murder one of their sisters. Awful, awful, awful husband. Yes, that was great as well. So, yeah, I tend to because most things I'm really up to date with and just I keep waiting. So I've got to have a number of things on the go to keep me immune.

[38:19] Sonya: It's funny, isn't it, how I'm finding that I'm being drawn more to the series where they have the weekly drops as opposed to the binging of the episodes. I'm a huge succession fan, and we're in the final episodes of the final season ever. And I'm literally by the time I finish watching the episode on, it's a Monday night here on the Monday night, I listen to the podcast, which is a debrief of the episode on the Tuesday morning. Oh, wow. And then I told you I'm obsessed. And then I literally wait for bated breath for the next Monday. But there's something I don't know, there's something really, like you said, old fashioned, but nice about having to wait for it.

[39:09] Kirstin: Yeah. Having something to look forward to. And then really, I think, even more appreciating it because you've had to wait.

[39:16] Sonya: I get to wait. Yes. No, I totally agree with you. And all the shows you recommended are brilliant, and I think that you're enjoying those. Kirsten thank you so much for your time. It has been such a pleasure having you on the show, and I hope that you'll still be filling your ears with Dare Menopause episodes for many months and years to come.

[39:36] Kirstin: I definitely will be filling my ears with it. I love the conversations that you have and the guests that you have on, and I'm very thankful that you've given me this opportunity to chew the ears off yourself and your listeners as well. So thank you so much.

[39:58] Sonya: Thank you for listening today. I am so grateful to have these conversations with incredible women and experts, and I'm grateful that you chose to hit play on this episode of Dear Menopause. If you have a minute of time today, please leave a rating or a review. I would love to hear from you because you are my biggest driver for doing this work. If this chat went way too fast for you, you and you want more, head over to Stellarwomen.com Au podcast for the show notes. And while you're there, take my Midlife quiz to see why it feels like midlife is messing with your head.