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March 2, 2023

Lisa & Adrienne: Firing women up for life post menopause!

Imagine having not just one but two extraordinary women on a mission to fire other women up for their lives post-menopause cheering you on.

That's precisely what you got when Lisa Kiebzak and Adrienne Kramer teamed up, not only as life partners but as business partners in Age Like A Renegade.

Chatting with Lisa and Adrienne was such fun and I know you'll enjoy hearing all about their crazy challenges, their individual menopause experiences and the difference that they make in the lives of the women they support.

In this episode you will learn:

  • How and why Lisa's menopause transition was so different, 10 years ago, to Adrienne's more recent transition.

  • About the crazy challenges they regularly set for themselves and have a blast completing and why they set out to do them.

  • Why they believe every woman should age like a renegade.

Age Like A Renegade - website
Buoyant by Susie deVille - book
City of Girls by Elizabeth Gilbert - book

Other Episodes You May Like
Sonya Lovell - Changing the world for the next generation
Susan Dean - The power of story and nurturing our feminine

Where to find Sonya:
Take the Midlife Quiz
Stellar Women Website

You're invited to join the We Are Stellar Women community on Facebook, a free supportive space for all women navigating the menopausal transition. Click here to join.


[00:31] Sonya: I have Lisa and Adrienne with me today from age like a renegade. Ladies. Hello. Hello. I love that in unison. Brilliant. Why don't we kick things off by Lisa? Introduce yourself first. Tell us a little bit about who you are. And then, Adrienne, I'll get you to take over and introduce yourself.

[00:54] Lisa: Sure. My name is Lisa Kiebzak. I have a Masters in social work. I am a personal trainer and a licensed massage therapist. I live in Asheville, North Carolina. And I guess this is important. I'm ten years post menopause, so I just turned 60 in December.

[01:16] Sonya: Amazing background. Thank you. And Adrienne?

[01:21] Adrienne: I am Adrienne Kramer. I am a physical therapist, and I recently got certified by the North American Menopause Society as a certified menopause practitioner. And I am not that long post menopause. I turned 57 in December, and October of 2022 was my menopausal moment.

[01:50] Lisa: Yeah.

[01:50] Adrienne: I happen to know migraines were a big part of my menopause journey, and so I checked my migraines, so I knew when my final period was, which was kind of fun. Lisa made a cake for me.

[02:01] Sonya: Oh, yes. I love that. And I think the one thing that I would also like to kind of introduce to our audience is you guys are a very happily married couple. Yes. Yeah. Which is incredible. So not only do I have so many questions about your movement age like a renegade, which I love the name of I love so much, I'm also really keen, if you're open to it, to dive into what it was like to be sharing a home, a relationship with each other, as you both obviously. Lisa, you were ten years ago, but Adrienne, you've been a lot more recent. What it was kind of like to support each other through those perimenopausal years.

[02:50] Lisa: Absolutely. Would you like to start there?

[02:52] Sonya: Why not?

[02:54] Lisa: Sure. So I'm just going to go ahead and start with that, because ten years ago, we weren't doing Age Like a Renegade, and we didn't have all of the information and knowledge that we have today. So my menopausal journey was a little bit different than Adrienne was pretty much in the dark. My understanding of menopause is you just stop having your period, and that's all there is. If I knew then what I know now, it sure would have made a whole lot more sense. That probably the five to ten years leading up to menopause, just kind of the changes in emotional turmoil that I was going through would have made a lot more sense. I didn't have any conversation around menopause. And it's only since we started to research and learn all of this stuff that we really became educated. And Adrienne's menopausal journey has been quite different.

[03:57] Sonya: Yeah. Sorry, Adrienne. Were you guys together then? Did you kind of go through Lisa, your menopause will transition together?

[04:06] Lisa: We met just prior to my menopause.

[04:11] Sonya: Okay, cool.

[04:13] Adrienne: Yeah. So, Lisa was probably but she was in a long term relationship that ended during that, and who knows? She didn't know.

[04:26] Sonya: Yeah. I don't think that's an uncommon story.

[04:30] Adrienne: No, I was lucky enough to have information, so I knew what was happening. I mean, there's still things everyone has their individual symptoms, and I certainly I mean, I had the worst of my hot flashes in a mask in 2020, so the timing of that was not great.

[04:52] Sonya: Yeah.

[04:53] Adrienne: But, yeah, I was lucky enough to know what I might want to change in my nutrition, changing my workouts and tail to my path, and that's when we were really learning about it, was when I was most symptomatic.

[05:11] Sonya: And is that what triggered yes. So, Adrienne, was that what triggered you guys to head down this path? You going through your perimenopause, the recognition of what Lisa had gone through without all of that support and education, then being able to see, okay, now, Adrienne, this is what you're going through, but, hey, we can actually now do the research and set you up in a much better way.

[05:35] Lisa: Sort of.

[05:36] Adrienne: It started as Age Like A Renegade started because we like to make up crazy challenges for ourselves. And we had a couple of people that are more than a couple of people that kept saying, where can I follow you? I want to see what you're doing next. I want to know what you're doing. And so we came up with the name for us, we're aging. And because you tell her the story of how we came up with the name.

[06:00] Lisa: Well, first of all, the people that were wanting to follow us were half our age, and they kept telling us that they wanted to age the way we were. Like, they wanted to be us when they grew up. We were sitting in a cafe, having coffee and eating a muffin, and we were trying to come up with a name that really encompassed who we were, who we wanted to become, and we came up with age like a renegade.

[06:25] Adrienne: And we knew it when we came up with it. That was it, because who doesn't want to age like absolutely. Then we were starting to read books. Books were starting to come out. I actually took a menopause for athletes class with Dr. Stacy Sims, and because a lot of the information was hitting the athletes first, they weren't willing to just stop doing what they were doing or start failing at what they were doing. They weren't going quietly. They wanted information. So that's where we started. And once we started getting that information. Athletes aren't the only people that need this, and people who don't see themselves as athletes aren't going to get this information panel. So maybe we should teach this to everybody. That's where we came up with the whole movement of Age Like A Renegade, where it became an educational platform for us, too.

[07:20] Sonya: I love that so much. So I want to take you back a little bit because there's something you said that I'm super intrigued by, and that is tell me about these challenges and adventures. What crazy stuff do you ladies get up to that makes people half your age want to be you when they grow up?

[07:36] Adrienne: Go ahead, Lisa.

[07:38] Lisa: For the very first time that happened, we were doing a Spartan obstacle race, and we went under the dunk. While we came up, we're wet and muddy, and there was gray.

[07:51] Adrienne: Yeah, gray and wet and muddy.

[07:54] Lisa: And there was a 20 something volunteer that was standing on the side, and she just said, I want to be you when I grow up. And we kind of looked at each other and we're like, oh, my gosh, we're old.

[08:08] Sonya: Oh, my God, that's so funny.

[08:10] Adrienne: I think one of our favorite challenges, both of us, was 24 hours with a kettlebell. It was a 20 pound kettlebell. We didn't put it down. We took it on a four month hike. We were also, at the same time, doing 100 days of rowing, 1000 meters a day on a rowing machine. So we had to hold the kettlebell where we were doing the rowing machine.

[08:32] Sonya: Okay, so, yeah, officially, you guys are crazy.

[08:35] Lisa: Okay.

[08:36] Sonya: I'm doing a quick Google on my phone here for my listeners because my math brain is not working right now, and I need to know what £20 is. Okay, so that's about nine kilos. Okay. That's a fairly decent sized kettlebell to be carrying around.

[08:55] Adrienne: We debated between going a little lighter, which would have been much easier, but then we thought it would.

[09:01] Sonya: That's the point of that.

[09:02] Adrienne: Yeah, exactly. We did take 4 hours to sleep, and we had to hang on to it. So if you rolled over, we didn't put it on our bodies because we didn't want to hurt ourselves off the blood flow. But if you rolled over, you had to take it with you. And if you were sitting down, you had to have it on your lap.

[09:23] Sonya: Okay. Did you have a name for this kettlebell? Did this kettlebell and did you have.

[09:27] Lisa: One.

[09:30] Adrienne: Just the kettlebell challenge.

[09:32] Sonya: Did you have one each, or was it just one kettlebell?

[09:34] Lisa: No, you must have each.

[09:36] Adrienne: Yeah.

[09:38] Lisa: Strange, this thing.

[09:39] Adrienne: It got easier as the day went on, which was different than most of our challenges.

[09:43] Lisa: Yeah. When we went down the four mile hike with the kettlebell, the first few steps, I looked at Adrienne and I said, I'm not sure I can do this. This is going to be hard. And then the further we walked it was on the lighter it got. It was weird.

[10:00] Adrienne: We tried putting it in a backpack, but that was awful because it just came to the bottom.

[10:04] Sonya: Yeah. And it would have totally changed your center of gravity and yeah, that would.

[10:08] Adrienne: Have been we just switched hands and held it like this. Held it over our shoulder and down at our waist.

[10:15] Lisa: I've sort of been missing those kettlebell hikes. I kind of want to do another one.

[10:19] Sonya: Okay. Yeah. Definitely crazy. Lots of bruises. Did we have lots of kettlebell bruises by the end of the challenge?

[10:27] Adrienne: The other thing we did during that challenge is we have a deck of cards that's kettlebell exercises, and every hour on the hour, we pulled the card and did whatever the exercise was.

[10:37] Sonya: My God, this is so much fun. Did you create this challenge?

[10:41] Adrienne: Oh, yeah.

[10:45] Sonya: Have you now copyrighted this challenge?

[10:48] Adrienne: No. That's a good idea.

[10:51] Lisa: Usually I will come up with a crazy idea outrageous. And then Adrienne will go, okay, hold on a minute. Let's make this something that we can actually do that's not so totally insane.

[11:03] Sonya: Okay, so, Adrienne, you are the sanity check.

[11:06] Lisa: Yeah.

[11:06] Adrienne: I'm the practical grounded one. Yes. Lisa is very creative.

[11:11] Sonya: Yeah, I'm seeing that. Oh, my gosh, this is crazy. Okay, so that was the Kid or Bell challenge. What was the next one? The rowing. But you were doing them simultaneously.

[11:19] Adrienne: We ended up doing yes, because it was 100 days, 1000 meters of rowing a day, which was not a lot of time. It was five minutes or less. We got faster as we went. Some days out day, and some days we tried to see how quickly we.

[11:41] Sonya: Could do it, print it. Yeah.

[11:43] Adrienne: But it was more of a mental challenge of, hey, I got my pajamas on, I'm ready for bed, and I forgot to today.

[11:51] Lisa: I'll be back.

[11:52] Adrienne: Yeah, exactly.

[11:55] Sonya: Okay. That is really cool. Do you have any other challenges, Lisa, that you've dreamed up that we need to know about?

[12:02] Lisa: Well, we're in the middle of a challenge right now. We're doing 1000ft of vertical every day for 100 consecutive days. Walking, climbing 1000 vertical feet.

[12:17] Adrienne: Walking or running or box step ups.

[12:24] Sonya: So you could go rock climbing, like your wall rock climbing. Would that count?

[12:28] Adrienne: We could. We haven't done that. We are trail runners. So if we're not doing on our treadmill, we're doing it on a trail or the box step up or our stairway in our house is seven vertical feet. So if we need to we don't do all of it there. But we might add, like yeah, you.

[12:47] Sonya: Need to add it on.

[12:48] Adrienne: Yeah.

[12:50] Sonya: That whole scenario of being in your pajamas and realizing you've come up short yeah.

[12:54] Lisa: And it was probably a few days into this that Adrienne looked at me and she goes, why did we pick 100 days? Why didn't we say 30, because 100 days is a long time.

[13:11] Adrienne: If we do it on our treadmill, it takes at least around a half an hour.

[13:15] Sonya: Yeah. Okay. So it's longer than the row was, you guys in North Carolina, so it's your winter right now, so at least it's the cooler months to be doing this.

[13:25] Adrienne: Yeah.

[13:26] Sonya: Okay.

[13:26] Adrienne: And we are training for a Grand Canyon thing. It's called rim. To rim to rim. It's not a race. You do it on your own time, but it's 48 miles with 10,000 vertical feet up and down.

[13:40] Sonya: Wow.

[13:41] Adrienne: So that was kind of the motivation to put a vertical challenge.

[13:46] Sonya: And my next question around these challenges is, Lisa, do you have people that join in and take part in these with you, or is it literally just you guys doing these?

[13:57] Lisa: Nobody wants so far, it's just I.

[14:01] Adrienne: Don'T know why, but we should also say not all of our challenges are physical.

[14:07] Sonya: Right.

[14:08] Adrienne: What we call the pantry challenge right now, where we give each other three ingredients from the refrigerator or the pantry. You know, the pantry gets, like, a little bit of this, little bit of that leftover. Yeah. You get three ingredients, and you have to make a meal with it, and you can add whatever you want to it.

[14:26] Sonya: Okay. Yeah. So we have a television show here. You may well have it in the States as well, called MasterChef, where they actually get the pantry challenge, and they get given a block box, and it's got certain ingredients in it, and they have to create a meal from that sounds very similar to that. Okay. Yeah.

[14:43] Adrienne: And you can't hide it in there. You have to know if it's in there.

[14:45] Sonya: Right. Okay. It has to be something from your pantry, so it can't be something weird and wonderful or refrigerator. Yeah. Okay, cool. All right, so how's that going? What's the craziest thing you've eaten so far?

[15:00] Adrienne: What's the craziest one? Well, I just gave Lisa hers for tomorrow.

[15:04] Sonya: Okay.

[15:04] Adrienne: And I gave her red box toy chicken and chestnuts.

[15:10] Sonya: Oh, yum.

[15:12] Adrienne: Yeah. The first one she gave me was wild rice, a packet of instant miso soup, and red lentil. Pasta? No, not pasta and rice.

[15:25] Lisa: What was the jelly?

[15:26] Adrienne: Grape jelly. Grape jelly, wild rice, and miso soup.

[15:32] Sonya: Okay. You had me until you added in the jelly.

[15:34] Adrienne: Yeah, I made a grape jelly apple cider vinegar glaze for Brussels sprouts.

[15:42] Sonya: Oh, man. You're kind of super inventive. Wow.

[15:50] Lisa: With those types of crazy things, the cooking things and the physical things that we do, it really you bond over these things. You sort of bond over the suffering. You bond over the challenge. I mean, we've gone through so much together. We've been filthy, dirty, beat up, you name it. And the amazing thing for the two of us is we've done some very physically trying things, but we've noticed that we are never cruel to each other. It's always we're encouraging each other or we're laughing at ourselves or something to get through it, but we really get through it with a pretty great attitude.

[16:37] Adrienne: We chose it.

[16:38] Lisa: Adrienne oftentimes talks me off the cliff because there have been many times when I've been like and she's like, oh, come on.

[16:50] Sonya: You two just have the most beautifully supportive relationship. Like, such a strong synergy, and you obviously have a lot of similarities, but I can also see those differences coming through as well. And I guess that we can get back on track to talking about the whole menopause thing and that age like a renegade thing. So that supportiveness that obviously you guys have for each other that's so strong, has obviously been something that has helped Adrienne you when you went through your perimenopause and into your postmenopausal transition.

[17:27] Adrienne: Yeah, and with the classes that we teach, it's been great because my background is more science based, so I talk a lot about the science of it all. And then Lisa, with her Masters in Social Work, she brings in things like diet culture and how to still feel like a person when you go through all of this and come out the other side and figuring out who you want to be now. And something we call finding your extraordinary, because everybody's got one.

[17:59] Sonya: Got one. I love that so much. Yeah, I saw that on your website, and that really jumped out at me as finding your extraordinary. I was, like an extraordinary renegade. You guys have just nailed a particular market. So tell me about the evolution of the courses that you're running, the community that you have. How long have you been doing that? What has been the biggest takeaway that you guys have got from creating all of that?

[18:28] Adrienne: You want to go with that? Go ahead. So we started putting it all together in 2020, and I think we taught our first class. Was it 2021? It was all on Zoom because we still weren't gathering. We still have yet to teach an in person class. We're waiting for a space to be ready for us to do it. So we've had a lot of local people because they hear about it from us. We were doing the Zoom classes live, but other people scattered in other places, friends of different people. And it's been really interesting. We've had women as young as 30s who want to prepare for paragonapod, and we've had women as old as 80s who want to make sure they're doing everything they can to age well. Yeah.

[19:18] Sonya: And I would imagine that I talk a lot about being future fit and future healthy, which is obviously what you're talking about. That amazingly, Ford thinking 30 year old that's doing that, but also for the woman that's at that other end of the 80, where you go, well, she's so post menopause all now, like. But I also imagine not only can she learn so much for herself, but also for her own daughters, assuming she has daughters, daughters in laws, grandchildren, what she can, information that she can then impart on to them, that's going to be life changing for them as well.

[19:53] Adrienne: Yeah.

[19:54] Lisa: I find, though, that it's still somewhat of a taboo subject. It's changing, but we're not quite there yet. There are a lot of women that have a hard time acknowledging this stage of life, wanting to really talk about it. They sort of minimize it. It's either, oh yeah, I went through menopause, it was nothing, or they say, oh, I've already gone through menopause, it's like too late for anything. And they don't want to really talk about what it means to get older. I'm not talking about getting older just today, but five years from now, ten years from now, when you're 20, we don't think about what am I going to be or look like when I'm 30. It doesn't cross your mind, but really, we're in our forty s. Fifty s. Sixty s. We need to start taking a look at how do I want to feel five years from now, ten years from now, how do I want to age, what do I want to be able to do when I'm 80? And we need to start taking action, some type of action. Now, you don't have to do crazy things like what we do, but if tap dancing is your thing, then, my gosh, buy a pair of tap shoes.

[21:18] Adrienne: And if you start at 50, think how good you'll be by the time you're 60.

[21:24] Sonya: That's right. And I think that's such a great message to get across to women as well, is that it is never too late to start. There is no, sorry, you're too late, you missed that vote. You can't make changes now. And it's really interesting. I've had a couple of messages recently from women that are in my community, in my world, where they've almost had their specialists, and often these are endocrinologists, so they're the hormone specialists, kind of telling them that, well, it's too late, you can't change that now, you can't make a difference in that part of your life. And they come to me and go, but hang on, didn't you just talk recently about how you change that? And I'm like, yeah, because you can make changes to your physiology when you have the information and the support and the education behind it. And it really frustrates me that when women are told that it's too late. Sorry. And these are women in their fifty.

[22:19] Adrienne: S. I know, yeah. So with our class, what we do is we had it broken down into five separate sections. The first section is about what our hormones do and what happens when we no longer have them. And then the second section is about nutrition, like things we might want to change that our bodies would handle better, and the balance of them, and for bone health. We don't talk about diets. There's things aimed at women and losing weight.

[22:50] Sonya: No, we talk about and I really feel strongly that anyone that is talking about diets, you should run away from as fuss.

[22:59] Lisa: Agree.

[23:00] Adrienne: Absolutely. And then exercise. And we go into depth in exercise because we want to address all the things that can help make healthy bones as well as happy, healthy bodies and then sleep. But at the same time, I'm talking about the science of all that and Lisa is talking about the flip side of it, the mental, emotional stuff.

[23:21] Sonya: And it is so important to include those together. I think sometimes I'm obviously a personal trainer, but I've done a lot of coaching as well, and I see a lot of personal trainers and fitness specialists that can't bring the empathy and the understanding around the mental health and the psychological load that we really take on board during those years. So Lisa, talk to me about what you bring into the program and how you feel. That helps.

[23:56] Lisa: I'm just going to talk about me in a nutshell because I love people. I especially love women because I'm a woman. I'm married to a woman, I have an amazing mother, I have two incredible sisters, I have worked with completely female teams. And I just believe in women educating themselves. And I love to empower women to live the best life that they can live. And the older I get, the more passionate I get about that. Because I have met so many women who are, like you said, in their thirty s and forty s, and they're already talking about how they're getting old and they can't do certain things. And if you keep that mindset, I want women to change the mindset about aging and stop listening to whatever magazines they're reading, whatever media they're paying attention to. So my piece of this is really tapping into that the mindset, the mental, emotional, spiritual aspect of it, and getting women fired up about their lives, that they can be their magnificent as they are, but by golly, you can do incredible things as you get older. It's something that we should be excited about and embrace, not dread. And it's that dread that prevents women from having conversations about it. So I'm sort of motivational in how I wrap everything up. When she's finished talking about her thing, I take it and I'm like, okay, here we go, we're going to get fired up and this is what we need to do. Because I kind of see a little bit of a sadness in women often.

[25:53] Sonya: I had that experience on the weekend and I wonder too, and you may agree with me on this, I'm really keen to know what you feel about this. I feel like there is some generational sadness, some generational dread that carries over from what we've seen our mothers go through, or our mothers in law, or our grandparents and we carry. And it's almost like there are some women that carry almost on a cellular level this belief that that experience is what their experience is going to be. And then it's almost like they manifest that into happening. Absolutely.

[26:30] Adrienne: Well, there's lots of studies that show that mindset about aging makes a big difference in how you age. So even the science shows that. So if you've been told your whole life that once you get past 50, you're done and you should just sit and watch the TV or whatever, you're going to believe that that's true. Your life is finished at 50. So there you go.

[26:52] Lisa: If your mother was something at a certain age and then you're approaching that age, then the mindset is, well, here it goes. This is the way it happens. And the thing is, we don't know what we don't know. So we can't necessarily fault women for thinking that's the way it's going to be if that's all they've ever done. But we have to be willing to look beyond that and create a new reality for ourselves.

[27:20] Sonya: Yeah, I absolutely agree with you. And I think that's why it's so important that we have these conversations and we get chats like this into the ears of as many women as we can. Because it's through our sharing of stories and it's through learning what other people's experiences have been that we can see what's possible for ourselves. And then we can take the steps forward into actually making those changes.

[27:47] Lisa: Absolutely.

[27:48] Adrienne: And being good examples for other people to make those changes. Yeah.

[27:53] Lisa: One of the reasons why we do these crazy challenges go out and run 40 miles or whatever or carry a kettlebell. It's because it takes us out of our comfort zone. It takes us into a place where we're doing something that you don't think you can do, and then somehow you do it. And then you're like, oh, my gosh, we did that. What else are we going to do? It fuels itself. And then we start living into this thing that we didn't even know was possible.

[28:27] Sonya: I think there are a lot of people that lose that belief in themselves and that desire to be challenging themselves as the aging process happens. And I also think that there is so much societal pressure as well that makes women, because we're here talking about women, believe that, well, no, I'm too old for that. Why would I go and put myself outside of my comfort zone now when I could just plot along the way that I have been?

[28:55] Adrienne: Yeah, we had one challenge. We belonged to a fruit and vegetable co op kind of thing, and we ended up with nine cucumbers. And so I said, we got to do something with these cucumbers. And for seven days each day, I made a different cucumber recipe and fed it to Lisa.

[29:17] Lisa: And day eight, she also choose her.

[29:19] Adrienne: Favorite one and I made it again. And the nice cucumber. I traded a neighbor for herbs for some of the recipes. Physically active body to do that. It's just mind and having fun.

[29:34] Sonya: So simple. I want to know my final question to you, and I'm going to let you guys choose who answers this, but what is your hope for the future of this space that we're in that, as you say, we are starting to see some change come through. We're talking more about menopause, we're changing women's expectations about it. We're empowering them, we're educating them, we're showing them that they can be supported. What is your hope for where we are at in five years time?

[30:06] Adrienne: I hope it's more of a household word, and I think it's getting there and that people don't feel shame in expressing what they're going through physically, emotionally, things like anxiety that come along with it. People have no idea that's part of it. And so in five years, that's my hope, is that it's more of a household word and the conversations are happening more readily.

[30:28] Sonya: Yeah. Amazing.

[30:31] Lisa: And I want women to love themselves more than they do right now, especially as they're getting older, to just be a little bit more kind with themselves, compassionate, and to be able to look in the mirror and like what they see.

[30:48] Sonya: I love that so much. Yeah, I think that's a really they're both great answers and I think they also go hand in hand, really, like that normalizing of the conversation does open up the opportunity for women to be more accepting and loving of themselves and yeah, I agree. I'd love both of those things to be happening in five years time. Ladies, I am going to wrap this up. This has been such a fun chat. I cannot wait to bring this episode out for everyone. I wrap up all of my interviews the same way, and that is let's start with you, Lisa. What are you listening to, reading or watching right now that is bringing you joy?

[31:25] Lisa: I am reading a book called Buoyant by Susie Deville and it is about creativity in the everyday life and how actually instead of doing more and achieving more and kind of ourselves to the bone, what we need to do is step back and be creative and get in a bit of a flow state. And that will open all kinds of doors in our mind and consciousness.

[31:58] Sonya: Yeah. And possibility. Yeah. Incredible. Adrienne, what about you? What are you up to?

[32:04] Adrienne: I just went on a little bit of a fiction jag. You read a lot of nonfiction. But I just finished City of Girls by Elizabeth Gilbert.

[32:17] Sonya: Yes, thank you. I read that. Did you enjoy it?

[32:21] Adrienne: I very much enjoyed it. Yeah.

[32:23] Sonya: It's a fantastic story.

[32:26] Lisa: Yeah.

[32:26] Adrienne: Surprising the angle. She came out from the 1940s.

[32:31] Sonya: Yeah. I went in with no expectations. And I guess having read, you know, some of her previous works. And I've seen and yeah, but it was incredible and I could not put it down. I really loved it. I'm glad you brought it up because I read it a long time ago and I forgotten how much I loved that book.

[32:50] Adrienne: In fact, on Saturday I had a few chapters left and I said, finish this and then I can be helpful again. You have to ignore me until I'm done with this and then I'll be helpful again.

[33:02] Sonya: I love that. Yeah. Sometimes you've just got to get it finished. Wonderful. Ladies, thank you so much for joining me. I'm going to share in the show notes all the details about your website, your movement, your Instagram account. I think you are both incredible and I'm so grateful that we sat down and had this chat. Thank you so much.

[33:23] Lisa: Thank you.

[33:24] Adrienne: It was fun.

[33:28] Sonya: Thank you for listening today. I am so grateful to have these conversations with incredible women and experts. And I'm grateful that you chose to hit play on this episode of Dare Menopause.

[33:42] Sonya: If you have a minute of time.

[33:43] Sonya: Today, please leave a rating or a review. I would love to hear from you because you are my biggest driver for doing this work. If this chat went way too fast for you and you want more, head over to Dot au slash podcast for the show notes. And while you're there, take my midlife quiz to see why it feels like midlife is messing with your head.