65: Breast Cancer to Menopause: A Story of Grit and Grace with Kathryn Elliott

[00:01] Sonya: Welcome to the Dear Menopause podcast, where we discuss the menopause transition to help make everyday life a little easier for women. Hey, this is Sonya Lovell, your host of Dear Menopause. You may not also realize I am a breast cancer survivor. My guest today is Kathryn Elliott. We are chatting through our very similar breast cancer journeys, but also our shared experience of an induced menopause. This is quite a deep and personal exploration of our very shared experiences. Please strap yourself in. There is some ugly crying and yes, it was me. Kathryn. Welcome to Dear Menopause.

[00:48] Kath: So happy to be here, Sonya, thanks for having me.

[00:52] Sonya: Always a pleasure. Kathryn, why don't you jump in, tell everybody who you are and then we can jump into why you're here today.

[01:00] Kath: Yes. So gosh. I am Kathryn Elliot. I'm a mother of three teenage boys. I am a daughter. Both my parents are still alive, which is fantastic. I'm 50, turning 51 this year. I also am a sister. I have three older brothers. I love getting out into nature. I am also what I would call a breast cancer thriver rather than survivor. I had a diagnosis, a shock diagnosis of breast cancer in 2019 that absolutely transformed and changed my life, including putting me into early menopause at the age of 47.

[01:47] Sonya: Same age that I was. Yeah.

[01:50] Kath: Wow.

[01:52] Sonya: I love that you talked about your family first when I asked who you were. So many people talk about their work first or their reason for being on the podcast first, but I love that you introduced yourself as a mum and a sister and a daughter first. I think that's really beautiful. So family is obviously really important to you.

[02:11] Kath: Look, absolutely it is. And I think one of the epiphanies that I had when I was going through my cancer experience was how we can very much define ourselves around our roles and our work and our career. And I think for me, what became so apparent during that experience was what's actually really important in life are the relationships and the connections, the human connections that we have. And so I feel like putting yourself front and center of those is really where the love and the joy in life is, particularly when you're going through a really challenging life. Challenging experience.

[02:58] Sonya: Yeah, absolutely. So share with us your breast cancer diagnosis. So you've already alluded to the fact that it was out of the blue.

[03:08] Kath: It was unexpected.

[03:10] Sonya: Talk us through how that unfolded for you.

[03:14] Kath: Every time I talk about this story, it's so interesting. It's like stepping back in time and just seeing each little part of it. And it's so weird for me because I almost feel like the universe kind of knew something was happening before I did. So, six weeks before my breast cancer diagnosis, I decided that I was going to take an extended break from alcohol for whatever reason. Six weeks later, it was a morning like every other morning I'd been at the gym. I was working in a busy PR and marketing job. Funnily enough, I was actually working on a women's health campaign that day. And I had all this conversation in my head going on as I was in the shower. You're running late. You're busy. You've got to get out. You've got to get downstairs and get out to work. And then the interruption of that kind of mind conversation was, go out right away and look at your body in front of the mirror in your bedroom. It was like there was sort of this bizarre intervention. And I was like, oh, okay. I had just bought this new floor to wall mirror. I wasn't someone who would regularly go and stand and look at my body. And so I got out of the shower, and I went and looked at my body in the mirror. And it was at that point that my eyes darted straight to my right breast, and I could see that there was, like, a raised lump there. I could see it from that distance. And immediately my heart just fell. It felt like it fell down so far, and I was gasping for air. I just felt this huge sense of panic. Tried to scream down to my husband. I couldn't get the words out. But it was at that moment that I knew my life had changed. I knew that something was going on. I knew my body, this lump felt like something really major. And three days later, I was diagnosed with locally advanced triple positive breast cancer.

[05:37] Sonya: So you were triple positive?

[05:39] Kath: Yeah. Triple positive, exactly. Which is it's a fairly rare form of breast cancer. I mean, I think it's around 15% of cases are triple positive. And look, in the past, it wasn't a great diagnosis to get because it's quite an aggressive, fully growing cancer. But given the new targeted therapies, there was a treatment plan for me there that felt like I had a fairly reasonable prognosis, given it hadn't spread anywhere else throughout my body or my lymph.

[06:15] Sonya: Okay, great. That's fantastic. Beautiful. So then I'm going to make some assumptions based on my personal experience. You were handed over to a team of experts, your oncologist your surgeon, that sort of thing. Chemo, radiotherapy, surgery, all of the usual suspects for treatment.

[06:38] Kath: Yes. So I had neo adjuvant orhan so I had chemotherapy before surgery? Yes, five months of intense chemotherapy because I had the one isolated, very large lump. The idea was to shrink that and then have surgery afterwards. I was lucky that after the chemotherapy and targeted therapy with herceptin, the cancer had really dissolved what is called a complete pathological response to chemo, but still had to, I guess, have a lot more treatment after that. Even though the cancer had gone, I was then required to have surgery to get clear margins. So I had a lumpectomy radiation therapy and then continued with the targeted therapy till, I think, another nine months. And then I've been on Tamoxifen. It's probably three or four years now.

[07:40] Sonya: Yeah. Okay. And so then talk to me about your experience with the menopause side of things.

[07:50] Kath: So, interestingly, I got one period during chemo, which was kind of bizarre, but it was actually something at the time I felt quite lucky to get because I thought maybe I won't have another period again. So there was a bit of grief associated with that because I had very regular period. No, I was perimenopausal and I was 46, nearly 47.

[08:21] Sonya: Did you know that you were perimenopausal? Like, had perimenopause appeared on your radar at that point?

[08:28] Kath: Not overly. The only thing I knew was that I was having, I guess, just some whether they're hot flushes, but at night I was having some of those feeling really hot and having to take clothes off, but nothing full on in terms of I wasn't waking up in lathers of sweat or anything like that. But I think definitely I noticed that there were some temperature changes. And I also noticed that maybe there were also a little bit of kind of some mood things and changes as well.

[09:06] Sonya: Yeah. Okay, so you had recognized there were some shifts happening, but hadn't really recognized them for what they were. Yeah.

[09:14] Kath: And I think just some skin changes, but it just felt like it was looser or it just wasn't as, I guess, younger skin, it started to lose. I could see on my arms and legs that it was different.

[09:31] Sonya: So you had that one period then, during your chemo.

[09:34] Kath: That was it. And that was goodbye. I think when I got it, I felt like, oh, wow, a lot of people said, oh, that's so unlucky that you got your period during chemo. But for me it was very much, you know what, I don't actually want to go into induced menopause. I would have liked my body to have had the opportunity to do it naturally. So I was actually very sad about it, but I didn't let myself really feel those emotions at the time because I was in survival mode and I had to put my energy elsewhere. And of course, people kept saying to me, well, you've got more things to worry about than worrying about going into menopause early. Like, that should be the least of your worries. And it really wasn't until I think once I'd moved through Chemo and I'd had the news that I had had a really good response, that I started to emotionally process not only a cancer diagnosis, but also the impact. That it was going to have on my life and that I was probably in menopause going to be post menopausal in six or twelve months time. And that that would have an impact on on my life.

[10:57] Sonya: Yeah. And it really does, doesn't it? It has a really significant impact on your life when, as you say, your body's not gifted the opportunity to go through that process naturally, at its own pace, on its own terms.

[11:16] Kath: Yes. And that felt really sad. And I still feel like there's some grief to process in that because I have a lot of friends now who are going through perimenopause post menopausal and just a lot of their conversations about witnessing the changes through perimenopause. I guess I felt like I wasn't able to do that, that there was here I was one day, then I went into chemo, had a period, and that was it. And so I had my last period was I always remember it was in October 2019.

[11:58] Sonya: Yeah. So mine was May 2017, so my last one was between so I was opposite to you. I had my breast conserving surgery or my lumpectomy, and then I had my chemo, and mine was after my surgery and before my chemo started. And so once my chemo started, I never had another period again. It's almost as significant as your first period in many respects. And I guess in some ways that for us is different to what a woman who has her last period but never knows that that's her last period. For women that go through a natural menopause, they often have their last period, but they actually don't know that that's going to be their last period until twelve months down the track. And then it's like, oh, okay, I'm now post menopause, or oh, wow, that was my last period, but it's twelve months ago.

[12:51] Kath: Yeah. That's such an interesting point, isn't it?

[12:54] Sonya: Yeah. Whereas we have that really defined memory, which for me is as strong as my first period.

[13:03] Kath: I think so. And because it's also connected in with a really challenging and traumatic experience, I think there is that real connection there as well. And I think the other thing that I found was and I think I mentioned this before, but it almost felt like I was being a bit, you know, trivial worrying about it, you know, because of course I was in the range of perimenopause menopause, give or take, you know, five years or whatever, five, six years. And really I had my, you know, I had my life. And that was really what I should be worrying about. Not worrying about whether or not I got to naturally go through perimenopause and into menopause. But I guess the person that I am is very much I am quite holistic with my health. So I would have really liked to have experienced and seen and known what my body chose to do. I would like to witness that journey, I guess, and didn't get to, but that's okay. My breast cancer experience taught me a huge amount. And honestly, even the perimenopausal symptoms for me haven't been anything too horrific. I think I have been quite I don't know whether the words lucky or not, but it hasn't been anything too debilitating for me. And taking tamoxifen also.

[14:45] Sonya: So you've stayed on the tamoxifen. My oncologist put me onto lectrozol, which is for when you're post menopausal, and that was a horrendous experience for me.

[14:58] Kath: Yeah. So I made the conscious choice that I was not going to do that. My oncologist. I was very happy to stay on the tamoxifen and get the extra one or 2%. I just said, I'm not prepared to do that for my physical or mental health, given I'm in a really good place.

[15:19] Sonya: I went onto the letrazol and I swear I turned into a 90 year old woman overnight. It was horrendous. I ended up back in my oncologist office probably six months later, and I just was in bucket, loads of tears, and said, you either need to let me come off this or I'm walking out of here and taking myself off this and I will never come to see you again. It was so bad, I think he let me go off. So I went off at all treatment for six weeks, but he was like, you are coming back to me and you have to make a decision at the end of the six weeks and you will either go back onto tamoxifen or lectrosol. And so I had six weeks to let my body settle and then I chose to go back onto the tamoxifen and then I stayed on that for almost five years. My experience of going on to the Letrozole was horrendous in comparison to being.

[16:12] Kath: On the toxin many people have.

[16:16] Sonya: Yeah. And it's because it's very different in the way that it acts in your body on the Oestrogen, and it pretty much depletes your body of all Oestrogen. And then now that I know what I know about menopause and the impacts of that decreased oestrogen in your body and that oestrogen plays a role in all areas of your body, now I know all of that, and I look back at what I experienced on the lectrozole and knowing that lectrozole takes your oestrogen down to pretty much close to zero, I go, oh, okay. Wow. Well, that totally makes sense that I would feel so bad on a drug that just depletes you of all your Oestrogen. It was really quite horrendous. I have another question for you, if you don't mind me asking. Now, this is a little bit off topic, but I'm going to riff off something that you just mentioned, because this is somewhere else where you and I are fairly similar and I haven't had this conversation with anyone else before. So you mentioned that you've always taken a fairly holistic approach to your health, which I also had in the past. I'd studied naturopathy, I'd always approached my own health. And the way that I treated myself previously from a very kind of more Eastern medicine kind of approach, dabbling into Western medicine if I'd needed to, but always kind of going to a natural approach first, then being faced with a cancer diagnosis and being told that I needed chemotherapy. That for me was very confronting. And I was also in an interesting situation because of my pathology where I actually got to decide if I was going to have chemotherapy or not. That was kind of weird within itself. But I found myself in this really conflicting position where I suddenly had to put my faith in and make a decision to have chemo, a toxin that is so challenging to wrap your head around when you come from a place of having to had such a holistic view on health previously. How did that sit with you?

[18:23] Kath: Even you talking about this? It makes me feel emotional. That day that I first went to chemo was yeah, I get emotional thinking about it. I was so devastated, I felt so scared and it felt like everything that I believed sort of about health, it was going against. I mean, even though I know that chemo, of course there's a lot of scientific evidence and I knew all of this, but the thought that I was going to have all of these toxins put into my body just felt so counterintuitive. And I had to do a lot of work on getting myself into a good mindset around it. So I did invest time and money into seeing a really good kinesiologist and like a reiki energy healer and getting myself into a place where I felt good about what I was doing. And I also supported myself with a whole lot of natural supplements that my oncologist signed off on to support my body whilst I was going through chemo. But yeah, that first day, getting into the car to go and have my first round of chemo, I mean, I was obviously really scared, but there was just this grief as well. This huge grief that oh my gosh, I never anticipated that I was going to be the person that was this person going up to level four on the oncology ward and sitting there with chemo going into my, into my body. This does not make sense. But as with everything, and you would know this, you get yourself into a routine. I mean, chemo became it's so all consuming that every Thursday, I mean, I had four lots of chemo treatment every three weeks. And then I had twelve rounds of weekly taxol. And it just became you just get into this routine. And again, I felt very lucky that I didn't have terrible adverse reactions to chemo. Not saying that I felt my strongest or my best during that time, but I didn't sort of have a lot of nausea. I did feel exhausted and tired and it was an all consuming period in my life, but it also taught me a lot as well. And the targeted therapy and the chemo and the other work that I was doing to support myself was all worth it in the end.

[21:11] Sonya: Yeah, I agree. I had a very similar experience, except I probably did everything in reverse to you, where I did the kinesiology and all the energetic healing afterwards. I felt like everything was all moving really quickly in the beginning and I dealt with all my trauma and did what I needed to do afterwards. But I did like, you work alongside a naturopath and my oncologist, and he had to sign off on everything for the supplementation and he had a very strict guidelines around what I could take and when I could take it around my chemo. And I had to do a lot of kind of, I guess, sitting down and being a bit of a Switzerland, I guess, and going, okay, well, my Naturopath wants me to do this for these reasons and my oncologist wants me to do this for these reasons. And I can see both sides and I just have to go, okay, well, I have to listen to both of them, and then I have to sit and do what is right for me. And I think the thing that I kept coming back to was in some ways, and everybody will be different with where they land on this, but I almost took myself out of the equation and I'm going to get emotional talking about this. I got emotional talking about this for a long time, but I took myself out of the picture a lot and just thought about my boys and I was like, this isn't I'm doing this so that I'm here as a mother for the next 40 to 50 years.

[22:46] Kath: My middle son turned 13 on the day that I had chemo. My first chemo.

[22:52] Sonya: Your first chemo.

[22:54] Kath: I look back at the photos in my phone and we had to cancel his dinner that night. And it's huge, the effect that it has on, and I think you've touched on something that has mothers and parents that for me, that felt so hard. I did not want to upset my kids. I didn't want to make their lives difficult to manage. But I knew I didn't have any control over it because they were going to be in pain, they were going distressed because you know what it feels like when you hear that word cancer for the first time. It's so confronting. I mean, I thought I was going to die. That was the thought that initially came into my mind. I just thought, oh, my gosh, I've got a big lump. And I didn't know a lot about cancer. I didn't know that an isolated big lump is actually better than a small one that's maybe spread. I just had no idea. So it's interesting how you then change your mindset. Once I got the call from the oncologist that, no, the cancer, my brain scan was clear. My Pet scan was clear that I was only dealing with breast cancer. I cried with joy. So it's interesting how you start to reframe your whole approach to your life and what's important. And I think I still carry that perspective with me in life now because I know that even the normal tough things that happen in life just don't upset me the way they used to. Because I remember when I was going through cancer, I would have done anything just to have a normal tough day and I would remind myself of that. I think I would do anything just for the kids to be ******. They're ****** and I don't have cancer. I want to be back to those days and I remember saying to myself, you're going to get back to those days. When you get back to those days, remember this day, remind yourself and never let yourself lose perspective of what you saw there. Yeah, I am emotional about it because that is actually I know that that's how I live now and that's why breast cancer, I wouldn't wish it on anyone. It's such a tough journey. But why? For me, I've been able to turn that experience into something that's given me a huge amount of purpose. I give back a lot into the community. It's given me an opportunity to talk about my lived experience with binge drinking and alcohol and generate awareness around the links between mild to moderate drinking and increased breast cancer risk and build a new career as an alcohol and binge drinking coach where I help other people look at and change their relationship with alcohol. I would never be here in this profession now if I hadn't gone through what I've gone through.

[26:20] Sonya: Absolutely. Yeah, I completely agree with you. That's a beautiful segue into talking about one of the other reasons that we got you onto the podcast other than for you and I to bond over tears and shared experiences.

[26:34] Kath: I feel like I need to give you a hug.

[26:37] Sonya: There wasn't a zoom screen between us. You've talked a little bit about you've moved into this new career now, which is the alcohol coaching. You've also launched a new business as well. Talk to us a little bit about that. My breast friend.

[26:53] Kath: Yes. So during COVID I launched two businesses, so my alcohol coaching and my breast friend, which is I guess it was such a healing and cathartic journey developing these products because I thought to myself, I really want to use this experience to develop something that is meaningful for me. And one of the ideas that I had was to develop a range of body lotions and body washes that have self care and self check instructions on the back that you can keep in your bathroom. So it's there as a reminder when you're in the shower or in the bathroom and with a donation going back to the Breast Cancer Network of Australia. And so, again, that was such a beautiful process for me that happened during COVID after I'd gone through all my treatment or not. Actually, it was during some of my treatment, but just developing the words, using my story as a guide to what I wanted to create just felt really good. And yeah, it's just a small business, it's just a small online business. But in a way, even if it does, nothing amazing. Now I created it. It's basically a symbol of my breast cancer experience and I look at it with so much pride and it's so symbolic for me as well.

[28:26] Sonya: And I like it's almost like it's a legacy of your breast cancer journey.

[28:31] Kath: Yeah, absolutely. It absolutely is. And the thing that I love about it was that one of my reflections when I was coming to terms with my diagnosis and asking myself some questions about my lifestyle and about things that maybe I needed to change. Was that I hadn't been paying enough attention to my body that maybe I hadn't been listening to it. That I hadn't been touching my body and noticing changes. And so I really wanted this product to be very much about nurturing and paying attention and taking responsibility for your body, for changes in your body, including your *******. And that really it's no one else's responsibility. And sometimes in the busyness of life we can check out of ourselves. And I think I had done that a little bit. And so the instructions on the back are very much about take a moment to pause and breathe. Being in the shower is a good time for that. Check in and feel your body and you're the one who knows if something's changed. And so that's very much, I think, the messaging, even through self checking of course self checking isn't going to pick up every breast cancer, but no, we know ourselves if we've got changes or if something doesn't feel right. And this is the other thing about trusting your instincts. There's nothing wrong with going and having going to your health professional and getting something checked out if it doesn't feel right and if everything's okay, that's fantastic.

[30:11] Sonya: Follow your gut. Absolutely. And I think it's also really important to remember going right back to the very start of your story is that checking your body in the mirror as well. I was at a charity fundraiser recently for Pink Hope. They were talking about a story of a woman who until she for some reason, she was standing in front of the mirror and she popped her arm up overhead to reach up to grab something or something along those lines and just that simple process of doing that. But in the mirror noticed that there was a big dimple underneath the underside of her breast that she wouldn't have noticed otherwise. And that that was an indication of a change in her breast that she needed to get checked out and ended up being a cancer. And so it's so important that we not only like you say, do those physical checks, which was how I found my cancer, but do those actual check ins in the mirror as well, those visual checks too?

[31:08] Kath: Yeah, absolutely. Because I think you get a different perspective sometimes when you're looking even from a distance. Definitely, yeah.

[31:17] Sonya: Absolutely. Catherine, I have loved our chat so, so much, and like you, I wish we were doing this in person and we could have a big hug. If there was one message that you could leave the listeners with today, what would that be?

[31:29] Kath: I guess two of the things, two of the areas that I've been really passionate about since my breast cancer experience is generating more awareness around the links between alcohol consumption and increased breast cancer risk. Without placing the fear of God in anyone, it's really about more awareness, getting out to people. Only one in five women know about the direct links, and it isn't excessive drinking. It's low to moderate drinking, which is only just over one standard drink a day. So seven standard drinks a week can increase your overall risk by up to 23%. So every drink that you choose not to have is reducing your breast cancer risk. There are only very few factors that we have control over, and particularly if you've had breast cancer and you're now in recovery or remission or living with breast cancer, still, this is a fantastic opportunity to make a choice that will reduce the risk of either recurrence or even further growth of cancer. I mean, I think it's one that's really important to think about. And then the other one is, I guess, just being more connected to our bodies and taking time each day to do that and knowing that our ******* are all different. They all change over the different years and phases. Of our life and that it's up to us to give them a bit of love and to keep connected with them and to know what's going on.

[33:10] Sonya: And I think I feel like that's even more of an important message for women in this stage of life, because one thing that I do hear a lot from women is that they start to disconnect from their bodies a lot, because the bodies physically start changing for a lot of reasons. But women do tend to become disenfranchised, a little bit unhappy with the changes that do happen with their body in midlife. And I think as a result, when we're unhappy with our body, perhaps we don't want to be touching, looking at acknowledging our physical body. And that is when you do leave yourself open to missing these signs that there is perhaps something going on. So regardless of how you perhaps feel emotionally about your body, it's super important to stay connected.

[34:06] Kath: Yeah, that's such a beautiful point to finish on. I think that's very true. We can often abandon our bodies because we maybe don't feel like we like the changes that we're witnessing. And that's the other thing that having cancer has really, I guess, made me feel really okay about is that aging is such a privilege. And that even though, yes, I'm noticing changes in my body, I actually feel very grateful for them now. And I try and treat my body really well and I try and love and attention, but I'm grateful for the wrinkles. I'm grateful for the skin that's a bit looser because when I was going through cancer, I wasn't sure I was going to get to my 50th birthday. And here I am at 51, feeling emotionally and physically in the best place I have in an absolute long time. So I'm so grateful for that. And beautiful continue to be.

[35:07] Sonya: Yes, I love that. Now, one final question for you, and that is, what are you listening to, reading or watching right now that is bringing you joy?

[35:18] Kath: Good question. Well, I've just finished watching Succession. I watched the last episode last night and I felt have you processed it all yet? No.

[35:31] Sonya: It'S a lot.

[35:35] Kath: That final.

[35:38] Sonya: Oh, my God, I just got goosebumps revisiting it.

[35:42] Kath: So that show has actually brought me a lot of joy. Well, I don't know whether joy is a word, but absolutely been really interested and loved it. And I'm still processing that. The other thing that's been giving me a lot of joy is I've been listening to Slatewood Mac again and her song 17 is so good. I've been revving myself up in the morning and dancing to that and getting my body moving. So I've been loving that, too. And at the moment, because I'm an alcohol coach, I am constantly reading. And one of the books that I'm loving at the moment is this book, which is called Awe the Transformative Power of Everyday Wonder by Dasha Keltner. So this again, these were the lessons that I learned.

[36:39] Sonya: Else has recommended that I can't remember who, but another guest I'm fairly certain has recommended that book as well.

[36:47] Kath: It's magnificent. It's just that reminder. That beautiful, beautiful reminder.

[36:51] Sonya: Excellent. I will link through to that in the show notes for anybody that is interested. Yes, for anyone that has yet to catch up on Succession. It's an amazing show.

[37:01] Kath: It really is.

[37:02] Sonya: It really is. And as much as there is nothing to like about any of those characters, I think the thing that brought me joy about that show was the production, the writing, the relationships. It was incredible. But they are not nice people.

[37:21] Kath: My gosh, they are not nice people. And the thing that you're kind of left with at the end, all that money, all that power, so much sadness.

[37:32] Sonya: So much, so much sadness unhappiness. So much unhappiness, I think. But anyway, we'll give spoilers away if we're not careful. Awesome. Catherine, thank you so, so much for your time.

[37:43] Kath: Oh, thank you for having me. I've loved our chat. And yeah, it's always beautiful to connect with people who've been through the experience of breast cancer, because it feels like there's just this deep knowing and understanding of a shared experience that's complex and complicated, both in a deeply traumatic way, but also in an incredibly, I don't know, human way. Amazing human way, too.

[38:10] Sonya: Yeah.

[38:10] Kath: So thanks for having me.

[38:15] Sonya: Thank you for listening today. I am so grateful to have these conversations with incredible women and experts, and I'm grateful that you chose to hit play on this episode of Dear Menopause. If you have a minute of time today, please leave a rating or a review. I would love to hear from you because you are my biggest driver for doing this work. If this chat went way too fast for you and you want more, head over to Stellar Women.com Au podcast for the show Notes. And while you're there, take my Midlife quiz to see why it feels like midlife is messing with your head.