66: The Silent Role of Menopause on Women's Financial Security with Mel Birks

Welcome to the Dear Menopause podcast, where we discuss the menopause transition to help make everyday life a little easier for women. Hey, i'm Sonya Lovell, the host of Dear Menopause. Today, i have invited in a very special guest. We are going to be talking with Mel Birks, from the Australian Institute of Superannuation Trustees, about a really concerning topic that isn't spoken about enough The lost earnings and superannuation for women as a result of menopause and the impact that it has on the longevity of their careers. This is a jam packed episode full of really vital information, so please listen in and share it with every woman that you know that needs to be aware of this topic. I hope you enjoy listening to Mel and I. Mel, welcome to Dear Menopause. It is so wonderful to have you here today. Thanks for inviting me, sonya. It is my pleasure. Mel, let's get the ball rolling by you jumping in So that I don't fluff your title, tell us who you are and a little bit about why you're here today.

So I'm Mel Birks. I'm the general manager of advocacy at the Australian Institute of Superannuation Trustees And we obviously have a very particular interest in what is affecting retirement decisions and, in particular, what's affecting women's retirement decisions. As we all know, unfortunately, women retire on substantially less than men And in fact, men retire on average on 40% more than women. So something is impacting women and making them leave the workforce earlier. We'd like to understand it, because that's obviously going to have an impact on their retirement.

Yeah, and that's a huge number, isn't it?

40%, it's a massive and there's lots of reasons why, which are understood amid the gender pay gap, the fact that women take time out of the workforce to have children, but there hasn't really been a focus on what's happening at the end of women's careers. And we were really shocked to see that the average age of retirement for an Australian woman is 52.1 years. And then we went hmm, average age of men are pause, 51. Something's happening here. So we started to have a little bit of a dig around and say well, what's going on? Because when you actually ask women what age they intend to retire, they say 64.

So that's a big difference between 52 and 64.

And if you'll try to plan for your financial future, all those additional years not working is going to have a real impact on how much you've got saved.

essentially, Yeah, absolutely, and I know, when we talk so much, or there is such a big light, sean, on the gender pay gap, the inequity between what men are paid and what women are paid, often for the same role, but that gap, i don't think it's as big as 40%, is it, which is what we're talking about in the lost superannuation figures. So that is something we should absolutely be screaming from the rafters about, and what you guys are doing, which is so brilliant, is calling out to the federal government to actually take a look into this. So this is one of the areas I'd really like to dive into with you is you obviously recognise that the ABS data, as you've already mentioned, was showing that the average retirement age for women is 52.1. And that, yes, that just beautifully seems to coincide with the average age of menopause being 51. So was that the trigger for you guys to go OK, let's dig into this, let's see what data we can find? So talk through that process a little bit. What did you dig into? What data did you have available to you?

So we did have a bit of a look to see what was publicly available. Of course, the first thing we looked for was is there any data on the impact of menopause and perimenopause on women's retirement decisions in Australia? And sadly, no, there is nothing that specific And in fact all we could really find was some UK data indicating around 25% of women who experience symptoms. They're so severe that they actually impact their ability to work. So we thought, okay, let's go see what other data we can find. And when we went to have a look at that ABS data, so they ABS collect statistics on the reasons why people retire, and I think it's it's a bit of a common misconception that women retire early because they have caring duties. I think if you talk to people they'll be like oh, they've got older parents or they have young children and they're stepping out of the workforce. But what actually the data showed was that, first of all, more than one in four women retire under the age of 55 and of those, nearly half so 44.9% of those when they're asked why they've retired, they say because of their own sickness, injury or disability. Now, i'm not suggesting that perimenopause and menopause is a sickness, injury or disability, but it is a physical condition And that would be the only category that you could put down to indicate that. And then what it makes even more. Not just the age that costs 52, 51, there's that but also if you look at the next age group up, that reason for retiring drops significantly. So we began to say, okay, there's something going on here. Women are leaving the workforce earlier than they intend, and what does that? what does that mean for their retirement and what impact is that going to have on their retirement savings and therefore their quality of life? Of course, there are many other social experts. You're losing women at the peak of their career, their knowledge, their insights, all of that is going, but of course, from a super perspective, money talks, you know it's like what is? what are women losing financially, in addition to all those other things? And we need to get more specific data so that we can have an approach that actually helps manage it.

Yeah, and that was the other area that I'm really keen to kind of unravel with you a little bit here today is you know you and when I say you, we're talking about the Australian Institute of Superannuation Trustees have called on the federal government to measure the menopause impact on women's employment and retirement decisions. What do you hope will be the outcomes from doing that?

Well, i think it's one of those old adages If you don't measure it, you can't manage it. So I think it's really getting a grip on how substantial this problem is, and by putting a dollar figure on it, i think it gets real cut through. We can talk a little bit about the dollar impact in a minute, but I think what we really want to do is to get some good data so that the government can take a comprehensive, multi-pronged approach to this issue. So the financial impact is just the consequence of the symptoms not being treated. So really, what you want is a health and social and employment, a multi-pronged approach, including education, because I think you would know this as well, sonia, and your listeners would too A lot of women don't know what the symptoms are. They can't recognise what the symptoms are. So there's this kind of like. Can we get a number on how it's impacting people? Then, from there, you start to say, ok, we need to develop a health approach, we need to develop an education approach, we need to have employers on board to understand how they can support women who are going through this period of their lives, and so for us, the starting point is just getting some data on it.

One of the things that we've seen from the information that you've released so far is that you were able to draw on studies that had been done in the UK And then you were able to update some of the information earlier this year when you were able to draw on a more recent study that's been released out of the US. But obviously, what we really do need that data, that is, and those studies that are actually based here in Australia, that's exactly right, specific to Australia and Australian women.

So just to give you a sense of the estimates that we've had today and the kind of educated extrapolations from public data, so if we assume that the average well, we know the average income for a woman in Australia between age between 45 and 54 is about $70,000 a year If they're retiring, let's say even just even if they worked as long as men do. So the average age of retirement for men is 59. So let's say they work for another seven years. Calculate that. So for an individual woman retiring seven years earlier than she intends to, or earlier than a man, that's a foregone wages of over $500,000 and $50,000 in super. So individually, about nearly $600,000 on average per woman. Then of course, you go look at the size of the population and you say well, how many women in Australia are in that age group and are potentially entering into this period? So there's about 700,000 women in Australia who are working at the moment, who are age 50 to 54. And if you say to them, okay, around 25 to 28% of them could be in fact having symptoms so severe that it's impacting their ability to work. That adds up to about 200,000 women who right now could be experiencing these symptoms so severely that they're either changing their jobs or dropping out of the workforce entirely, and that would, across our economy, be worth $15 billion in lost earnings and super. That is a phenomenal amount of money that is not being saved by individuals but also, to be blunt, taxes aren't being collected on it because women are dropping out earlier than they intend to. So I think it's really critical that it is. It's a health and social issue, but it's a really strong financial issue And unfortunately, because of all those other reasons on your, women are already behind men in their savings. In this age group, it's about a $50,000 difference between the average sort of median balance for a man and a woman aged 50 to 54. And if you stop working well, that situation is obviously not going to get any better.

And then we also know that women have periods of employment where they take gaps out anyway. So obviously we have time out of the workforce, often for women to raise children. They're often the caregivers to aging parents or to other family members. Got that gender imbalance in the income, that gap that we talked about. So women as a rule have got these periods of time where they're not employed, so therefore aren't earning income or super Yes, on top of this early retirement. It's really such a disparity, isn't it?

Well, it's a wicked problem, as I say, and there's some systemic issues in there which are systemic biases. And then there is this very particular thing we're talking about a period of women's life where every single woman will go through menopause. Not everybody is going to experience symptoms so severely, but if it is one in four women, there is a really large chunk of women who are really essentially being forced to leave the workforce earlier than they want to and they can afford. to be quite frank, i imagine most women who I've spoken to I'm sure you have Sonya they would have preferred to keep on working.

Absolutely, and we're seeing those ripple effects in community. We all know now that the highest growing portion of the population that are now homeless are women over 55. That's right. You cannot tell me that everything that we're talking about here today and that are not linked, that's right, and I think that's exactly right because I think we all instinctively understand it.

But that's where the data is really important We need to get in order to get real cut through in discussion and advocacy for women in this situation, with government data really helps. Like I think we all get it. We all know that that would make sense. Let's get some data that says OK, we can show that these things are all interacting and it's leading to a poorer outcome for women And, of course, we live longer than men, which is something we should be celebrating, not being concerned about. So I think there's a real opportunity for the government and for others to really step up to the plate for this situation and actually get some information. Let's get some education out there and help women understand what their options are as well. I'm sure you've had the conversations that I have and I've heard women talk about. The symptoms can be so amorphous. Do you know what I mean? Like I'm tired or I'm anxious, and we tend to think, well, it's because I'm busy. And there really needs to be some education so that women themselves can recognise what they're going through, can seek help and then we can stay working if we want to.

Oh, I know. You know, whenever I'm speaking whether it's at a corporate event or whether I'm on a panel or whether I'm in a workplace speaking and you start going through all the symptoms and how various they are and how they can mimic other things, And there's always women. You can just see the faces of the women in the room having these penny drop moments. Yes, These could be connected.

And the enormous relief that you are not alone. I think, because it's been such a taboo topic, i feel for our mother's generation who just had to suffer in silence, and I think we have an obligation to talk about this.

And I certainly do Absolutely.

But, to be honest, most people are perfectly fine with it. It's a biological fact. I said you wouldn't be embarrassed talking about breathing or blink.

Well, no Breathing or blinking. I love that, but I had someone raise on one of the episodes how we would never raise a daughter and not prepare her for her first period, or never prepare her for the fact she was going to have a period And that was a biological part of her teenage years. Yet we never prepared women for menopause, which is literally just the bookend of that exact same phase.

I have a list of things I didn't learn at school or they didn't teach me at school. It's quite a long list, But it certainly is. It's sort of like your heavy period and that's it. There was nothing beyond that. And I do wonder also that there's a bit of a bias, because once you can't have children, apparently you're not useful anymore. So I do think there's a societal issue there as well that we need to. We won't.

We should dive into the whole patriarchy and social distance.

But there is something there that makes it's OK to talk about one but not the other is what I mean. We need to be better at just talking about it, and I think there is a fear amongst women that they will be. It'll affect their careers, it'll have a detrimental impact, but really, the more you talk about it, the more open you are, the less of a problem I'd hope that would become for everyone.

Absolutely, i agree with you. So I'm really intrigued to know what response have you had from government?

I think it is now in the zeitgeist. We are seeing more announcements about women's health, including menopause, but we've still not really seen a specific announcement in relation to getting some data that is specific to Australia. So I'm actually encouraged that we're moving in the right direction And certainly when we speak into parliamentarians, politicians, there is some interest. We're just really looking for that concrete commitment to actually doing a specific piece of research which will have a multitude of benefits for anybody who's looking at menopause as an issue, either through a health, social or, in our case, financial lens.

Yeah, absolutely, and we do. I think it's really important that we do step back and look at the big picture and that it is very easy sometimes to kind of look at it from just within your bubble And for people in my position, it is very easy to just look at it from a health perspective. But it really is much, much bigger than that And we do need to look at it from all angles. We need to look broad and we need to look deep And we need to ensure that all aspects of women's well-being and health, financial well-being as well as every it all needs to be considered, and we need to be advocating and campaigning and making as much noise as we possibly can to ensure all aspects are taken care of, absolutely. So what's next? I'll see you in a few more tips here.

Well, i mean, i guess we continue. We'll continue to raise awareness. So having conversations with people like yourself, sonya, helps, and I think, for women and others who are listening. Have a chat to your local MP, which is we need to get it on the radar in a quite a specific way. So we'll obviously, from a retirement income, we'll continue to advocate for the impact it has on people's retirement incomes, but there is really an opportunity just to start having a broader conversation with those who can influence government, which is your local member of parliament and put it on their list. It's not an unreasonable ask. If you're talking about, as we said, you know there's 200,000 women who could be directly right now experiencing symptoms so severe that they're actually considering leaving the workforce or changing jobs, or also just experiencing taking time out of work, like using up all of their sick leave. there's all of these impacts, so I think it makes a pretty non-controversial thing. I would think, to say this is something that we just need to understand better so we can, as a society, have a more comprehensive approach to actually helping women through it. It's a biological fact. It doesn't disappear in six months. It can last up 10 years, so it's not something that's just going to go away overnight. So let's just get on the front foot and start doing something about it.

Yeah, fantastic Good advice, And I was lucky enough to have Sally Steggl, who's a member of parliament, on the podcast And that was her exact advice as well which was literally just email them, ring them, stop them in the street. Like you know, that is the best way that we can really just raise the level of awareness around this topic.

And I guess what's really quite encouraging about this parliament is there is a lot more women. And there's a lot more women entering that There are in the age group who themselves will be experiencing these things. So I think, for the first time, ever.

We really are seeing an opportunity to have these conversations And I know, you know, i am hearing reports that the conversation is actually being had a lot more regularly basis, which is great. I'm going to link in the show notes to A the articles that you guys have been releasing, which is fantastic. I'm also going to link back to the episode that I did with Sally so that if anybody is interested in listening to an MP talk about you know her perspective and how she feels that we can get some more work done in that area. For anyone that's listening, that would like to listen into that, they can go back and listen to that too. Mel, thank you so much. I'm so glad that you're doing this work. It is so great to have such an important body really out there behind an important campaign. All right, now I'm going to wrap things up by asking you my favourite question to wrap things up with Mel What are you listening to, reading or watching right now that is bringing you joy.

I am listening to a terrific podcast called Empire, which is about the to his. I love history. It's a history podcast where they explore the various empires of the world and the impact that they've had on the world. So it starts off with the East India Company and the British in India and it's made its way through the Ottomans, the Byzantines, the Romans. It's absolutely fabulous, So.

I highly recommend it.

William Dal Rimpel and Anita Anand, I think it is, and it's called Empire.

Love it, love it, love it. That sounds great, right up my alley. Okay, i am definitely going to look that up and I'm going to link that through in the show notes as well. Good tip, mel, thank you so much for joining us. It's been such a pleasure to chat with you Terrific. Thanks very much, linda. Thank you for listening today. I am so grateful to have these conversations with incredible women and experts and I'm grateful that you chose to hit play on this episode of dare men a pause. If you have a minute of time today, please leave a rating or a review. I would love to hear from you, because you are my biggest driver for doing this work. If this chat went way too fast for you and you want more, head over to stellarwomencomau slash podcast for the show notes And, while you're there, take my midlife quiz to see why it feels like midlife is messing with your head.